Cheating?

Arissa · Apr 14, 2017

So while looking over some vcv otoing tutorials, I recall seeing some that didn't actually teach you much of anything to do with vcv, and I'm curious of if this method constitutes as cheating.

The 'tutorials' I had seen basically told you that when recording a bank to record it alongside an existing bank, Namine Ritsu's vcv for example, then align the samples so that both banks sound timed together perfectly, and then copy the oto settings from the existing bank to yours.

Some call it genuius, others call it cheating and lacking integrity. What do you think?

KNΞMΛTCS · Apr 14, 2017

It all depends on the licencing of the voicebank. If the voicebank creators said you could make derivatives or modify their work, then have at it (just remember to credit them as their licence says). If not, then you need to ask them for permission first, and only proceed upon receiving permission.

The community may frown on such practices however, knowing who they are. I say it's just fine - if it works, it works. Just be open about it if you're asked, and ignore whatever BS they throw at you, if any.

Arissa · Apr 14, 2017

root@kineticisepic~# said:
It all depends on the licencing of the voicebank. If the voicebank creators said you could make derivatives or modify their work, then have at it (just remember to credit them as their licence says). If not, then you need to ask them for permission first, and only proceed upon receiving permission.

The community may frown on such practices however, knowing who they are. I say it's just fine - if it works, it works. Just be open about it if you're asked, and ignore whatever BS they throw at you, if any.

Yeah, I figured there'd be some legal business coming into play, although I wouldn't know how someone would be able to tell if someone copied an oto like that... And yeah, I'm sure a lot of people would think it was lazy or something. I'm planning on learning how to actually oto, rather than just mimicking an existing bank, just curious about everyone's thoughts on the alternative method

na4a4a · Apr 14, 2017

Most VCV tutorial are pretty bad, they don't teach you how to actually oto and just tell you to take an oto from elsewhere.

You can do that as long as it isn't against the origin bank's TOS but you should still learn what the values mean, do, and adjust it yourself for the best results.

Velvet · Apr 14, 2017

Sometimes, people in this community are really stingy for the wrong things, and this is one of them.

No, it is not "cheating", but it sure is a lot more meticulous and time-consuming than like, recording the samples right and generating an oto and adjusting said oto.

I'd say copying the oto like how you're describing is more akin to plug-n-playing a UST. Lazy and will probably sound like shit in some parts.

But using another oto of an UTAU and adjusting it to suit their own voicebank is a lot more commonplace than you think; I dunno if you noticed, but reclist makers often give a base oto when distributing said reclists. Same kinda thing.

The only exception when talking about these things is if using an UTAU's oto is against the owner's wishes. In that case, just find a different UTAU

Kiyoteru · Apr 15, 2017

It's kind of unfortunate you can't find good information, though. The concept behind VCV otoing is dead simple, so probably the only reason people are driven to do it this way is because VCV banks just take so long to OTO.

taigz · Apr 15, 2017

Getting another UTAU's OTO and then adjusting it a bit, I kinda have mixed feelings with it. It's a faster way rather than otoing it by hand. It's just like using setParam or Moresampler. You get a little oto setting, so just fix it a bit and there ya go. But even with that, I think otoing it by hand is better. While it's time consuming, at least you'll be sure where to put this and that, and with having pretty much the same values, like that 300-100 or 250-83 preutterance and overlap, cutoff in a negative value like -600, and consonant at 400 or something... it's usually just "duplicate then move the offset". Slowly but surely, as they say.

But taking another UTAU's oto, using oto generators, and slapping a base oto onto your UTAU, aka just doing "plug-n-play" like you don't even try to fix it... that's lazy. Like Velvet said, that's akin to plugging and playing a UST. And trust me, doing "plug-in-play" in UTAU will usually sound terrible, whether it be USTs or copied oto setting.

So you have two options: fix that copied/auto-generated oto to fit your voicebank, or even oto it by yourself.

Tree Sounds · Apr 15, 2017

TBH Tree's CVVC 5 pitch, uses these "cheatsy" otoes, but they've been manipulated so much that it's not even CLOSE to the original aside from the fact that it's an oto. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, as long as you're only using it as a base. Same with usts (obviously -3-)

수연 <Suyeon> · Apr 15, 2017

A simple base is fine (alias, stock values), but I find that adjusting an already made oto - taking say, Ritsu's and copy+paste+edit - is more work than making it from scratch. I generally don't trust generators (weird/messy values, redundancies), so... I'm in the learn to oto and adjust by hand camp. VCV is easier to get the hang of than other methods.

Arissa · Apr 15, 2017

Kiyoteru said:
It's kind of unfortunate you can't find good information, though. The concept behind VCV otoing is dead simple, so probably the only reason people are driven to do it this way is because VCV banks just take so long to OTO.

Yeah, a lot of tutorials I find on YouTube are either sort of outdated or use this method, and I'd prefer to actually know how to oto myself instead of just copying another bank since I doubt I'd really learn much using the latter.

Nohkara · Apr 15, 2017

I think that copying Ritsu Kire VCV reclist and recording all exact pitches: A3, C5, whatever and copy paste oto is basically OK because it not agains Ritsu's ToS AND as long as people adjust/edit oto.ini to fit THEIR vb recordings: not just slam it in own recordings and plug-and-play. But must say that it bit ewww and unoriginal method. If UTAU VB's ToS clearly states that do not take their oto and use to other UTAU VB then do NOT.

Everyone has different voice, vocal range and some people cannot handle the most popular 7 mora (or second popular 8 mora reclist) and needs shorter like 5. I cannot make C5 Kire voice nor I don't need extra "v" or "fy" recordings, so I select reclist and pitch that fits to MY needing.

I think that there should be more tutorials that teach people to use OREMO's BGM guide + show why heck it's useful (When I started UTAU I didn't know that did exits cuz every oversea tutorial used Audacity and that's why it taken me long to record AND oto VCV all myself), how to create a base oto by OREMO/SetParam/other way + how to add own surffix, understanding that base values are different when record in different tempo (e.g. 100BPM recorded VCV has different overlap/preuttr/ect values than 120BPM ones) and so on...

Current VCV tutorials in YouTube are very... outdated TBH. We need more helpful tutorial out that are up to date: in 2017

Kiyoteru · Apr 15, 2017

I've been working on a VCV tutorial to post to the Resource section, actually. Maybe I ought to finish it up. I don't really like making videos, though, because I use Mac and Linux and virtually every other UTAU user uses Windows.

Arissa · Apr 15, 2017

Kiyoteru said:
I've been working on a VCV tutorial to post to the Resource section, actually. Maybe I ought to finish it up. I don't really like making videos, though, because I use Mac and Linux and virtually every other UTAU user uses Windows.

Dang! I'm on the Windows bandwagon, too, ~~prbly bc I'm broke~~. I'll have to keep searching for tutorials on otoing, like an utau school or something ;^^

WendytheCreeper · Apr 15, 2017

A base oto is good for taking some of the tedious extra aliasing and other stuff out of the way, but generally you should make your oto fit to your own recordings, not the other way around. Even when you record to a bgm and specific tempo, no recording will exactly match a base oto, since everyone handles pronouncing consonants and vowels differently and everyone's recording situation is different. For example, I over enunciate my consonants, so that would obviously need to be accounted for in an oto.

I wouldn't say a base oto is cheating, but if you don't have everything lined up properly, then it won't sound as good as it could.

Kiyoteru · Apr 15, 2017

Arissa said:
Dang! I'm on the Windows bandwagon, too, ~~prbly bc I'm broke~~. I'll have to keep searching for tutorials on otoing, like an utau school or something ;^^

Funny you say "UTAU school", because the tutors from St. Defoko's School of UTAU might be exactly who you want to talk to!

Luc · Jul 1, 2017

My first VCV borrowed the oto from Ritsu and I didn't edit it at all.
I thought it was all good but looking back now, it sounds really off and not smooth at all.

dyne 智優 · Jul 1, 2017

the good ol' oto copy paste im wheezingjdmsuaola
As said, if deriatives=yes, then ok. Do whatever they say to do and all.

But, the lazy part of the community just gets at me. "I'm lazy, so I'll try to align my recordings to Ritsu's oto instead of aligning the oto to my voice".
... Like? You could get even better VCV transitions if you adjust the oto instead of multiple attempts of the same line (well if you're re-recording for sample quality, that's different!) or stretching samples?

Also, I'd refrain from early videos of _certain_ YouTube accounts.

Luc · Jul 1, 2017

aoi・kurt said:
the good ol' oto copy paste im wheezingjdmsuaola
As said, if deriatives=yes, then ok. Do whatever they say to do and all.

But, the lazy part of the community just gets at me. "I'm lazy, so I'll try to align my recordings to Ritsu's oto instead of aligning the oto to my voice".
... Like? You could get even better VCV transitions if you adjust the oto instead of multiple attempts of the same line (well if you're re-recording for sample quality, that's different!) or stretching samples?

Also, I'd refrain from early videos of _certain_ YouTube accounts.

yeah I see that but it's just that with very few tutorials, it's hard for newcomers who want to make a vcv to make an oto (I had no idea how to oto until a few months ago).
I think it's less on the lazy side and more on the "I have no idea what to do" side

dyne 智優 · Jul 1, 2017

Luc said:
yeah I see that but it's just that with very few tutorials, it's hard for newcomers who want to make a vcv to make an oto (I had no idea how to oto until a few months ago).
I think it's less on the lazy side and more on the "I have no idea what to do" side

Perhaps that's understandable if you're on, say, a social media site like Twitter where there's no one way to find UTAU users and request for help. Here, though, help is pretty much always available!
Here, I take the chance to remind y'all to not be afraid to ask for guidance when you have the chance! UTAForum is not just a place to show off skills and stuff, everyone is also here to learn.

Luc · Jul 1, 2017

aoi・kurt said:
Here, I take the chance to remind y'all to not be afraid to ask for guidance when you have the chance! UTAForum is not just a place to show off skills and stuff, everyone is also here to learn.

good point.

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