The Original Song/Producing Discourse

WendytheCreeper

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Defender of Defoko
I've noticed a lot in the UTAU community, and the Western vocal synth community in general, that there is a great amount of discourse on producers, producing, and song writing. There are some common issues that crop up from time to time. For example:
  • The amount of "edgy" music being produced - and whether this is a good thing or not.
  • How necessary is music theory knowledge in writing? (this topic blew up on the vocal synth confessions twitter fairly recently)
  • Why people want to produce music in the first place
  • and etc.
I'd like to open up a bit of discussion on these issues, and other issues you guys may see regarding producing and song writing in the community. I want to have a more serious discussion on these issues because currently so many more people than before are getting into producing and song writing, so I think it may be helpful to discuss these kinds of things.

Quick notes: Please exercise caution if you are even thinking about bringing up any specific musicians; while I think it is okay to criticize someone's work, you should remain respectful towards them while doing so. Also, don't limit yourself to the issues I listed! If there's something else you've noticed, bring it up!
 

Kiyoteru

UtaForum power user
Supporter
Defender of Defoko
I really don't care for the topic of a song in the first place being edgy or not, especially considering that I originally took on a dark name (dystopia) and now have to make an active effort to keep the edge sharp. The thing is, artistic expression is a really vital outlet for people to have, especially young and emotional people like the members of our community. It's better to let things out constructively, like through the creation of music and song lyrics, than to bottle anything in. So I understand a criticism like "these lyrics concern a sensitive topic, and you are insulting it." But to mock someone for saying that they feel sad is low. If you don't like what someone wants to express, fine- you don't HAVE to consume it. It's just not right to tell them to shut up.

My music theory toolbox when I began was a foundation in piano, which gave me some understanding of the notes, but more importantly led me to an interest in finding out more for myself about music. Music theory is a tool, its a style guide, that new producers don't need to already know, but should be open to gradually learning more. At the very least, I want to hear something that's in key- it doesn't matter if it's always C major, but it makes the difference between music and noise. (Noise music is an art that takes knowledge of the rules to carefully break. That, or an electric guitar?) I think it's like anatomy is to artwork- new artists don't need to already know anatomy, but they should be willing to learn more about it. Saying "it's my style" isn't an excuse to be closed-minded.

I feel like there's an element of the overseas community comparing itself to the japanese community. Maybe even being intimidated? From the beginning of Vocaloid's popularity we've heard great music coming from there, and it seems like we're somehow worse. There's a few reasons why that could be the case. The Japanese community, in general, seems to be comprised of older people, who are already familiar with music production. Many of our own have yet to learn the ropes, and of those who do have a good grasp, we're no professional. The language barrier also prevents lower quality work from reaching us. The songs that get translated and subtitled and become popular for covers are the ones that are already very high quality. If you hop on over to NND, you'll find all of the songs and producers who aren't as polished. It's just an illusion, really, and I'm sure something of the same happens the other way around. Popular, high quality overseas songs make it in Japan, but they may not be aware about all the rest.
Another thing is that we're only just starting to pick up the pace on making more original works, and feed on our own community, instead of relying on popular Japanese vocaloid songs as a source of covers. You can definitely feel that "weeb" feeling disappear as time goes on, with us listening to more and more of our own producers.
 

Arissa

Ritsu's Renegades
Defender of Defoko
I had thought that a lot of songs I hear here are somewhat edgy or depressing, like in Circus and Crusher P's music, and I always thought it'd be nice to expand with something cheery or silly, like what Mitchi M does, but you can't tell people what to write, draw, or compose/produce.

Many artists may express themselves through their art and may not always be the happiest camper. I know tons of artists that have faced depression and channel their feelings into their art, so this I don't think is any different. It'd be nice for some people to make more happier sounding songs, like Anh Duy, as it would change the idea that overseas producers just make sad stuff, but as I said, it can't be forced, and to each their own. :smile:
 
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WendytheCreeper

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I feel like there's an element of the overseas community comparing itself to the japanese community. Maybe even being intimidated? From the beginning of Vocaloid's popularity we've heard great music coming from there, and it seems like we're somehow worse. There's a few reasons why that could be the case. The Japanese community, in general, seems to be comprised of older people, who are already familiar with music production. Many of our own have yet to learn the ropes, and of those who do have a good grasp, we're no professional. The language barrier also prevents lower quality work from reaching us. The songs that get translated and subtitled and become popular for covers are the ones that are already very high quality. If you hop on over to NND, you'll find all of the songs and producers who aren't as polished. It's just an illusion, really, and I'm sure something of the same happens the other way around. Popular, high quality overseas songs make it in Japan, but they may not be aware about all the rest.
Another thing is that we're only just starting to pick up the pace on making more original works, and feed on our own community, instead of relying on popular Japanese vocaloid songs as a source of covers. You can definitely feel that "weeb" feeling disappear as time goes on, with us listening to more and more of our own producers.

Ah yes, that's another thing I forgot about...comparing ourselves to the Japanese community.

I think one of the most difficult things about not comparing ourselves to the Japanese community is that right now, there are so many big things happening on our side of the world. Western users now have a lot more involvement in the development of Vocaloids for our community, and vocal synth in general is becoming more of our thing, in a sense. This is pretty intimidating, having to play catch up. I think the best thing then is to continue encouraging new producers to move at their own pace. I know that sounds obvious, but it is pretty easy to forget that our path still needs to be paved, and that takes time.
 

KNΞMΛTCS

Just an UtaForum user
Defender of Defoko
Probably the biggest annoyance I have with vocal synth music - and a reason I never really listen to it - is lack of variety and experimentation. As Wendy said, the whole "edgy" deal is in, as is the crusher style (I think of it as "soft hardstyle" because it has the same tempo range and beat structure without the pounding kicks and aggressive sounds). Hearing one of these songs is like hearing another mussard onna beat song on the radio. Everyone wants to copy each other, because other vocaloiders will applaud them and follow suit, creating a perpetual cycle of mutual satisfaction and, in turn, an easy outlet for their personal emotions. In a sense, the vocal synth community is more of a therapy group than an artistic outlet for many.

This ties into the lack of quality as well. As mentioned, most of us are kids with a laptop and a some months of casual experience. Since the vast majority of the vocal synth community is of a similar nature, the quality standards for most content is on a similar plane, which gives producers little motivation to improve quality or push the limits. As I said before, the community has a significant population of emotional people in need of a relief. These people tend to be quite sensitive, giving blows of nastiness at the slightest jostle. In other words, they can't handle any critical opinions or comments on their work - putting a damper on their ability to improve. All this creates a feedback loop which results in the particular type of content we see in troves today.

Another thing worth mentioning is most good musicians will move away from the vocal synth community, because the wider music community as a whole is vastly more mature.

TL;DR us kids and our emotions, combined with our lack of skill, create a restrictive feedback loop which heavily limits the amount of quality content we make.
 
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PrinceofHades

A wandering soul
Defender of Defoko
Hm... I do have issues, but I'm not sure where to start.
First, it feels like no one is willing to play with genres. I mean, I understand that we are all a little bit limited. We only have our computers. But you can synthesize a decent piano piece in FL Studio. We don't have to limit ourselves.
I think what I'm trying to say is that those who are just starting tend to decide "This is the genre I will compose, and I won't do anything else" and that sort of stagnates.
Another thing is it's a bit depressing because it feels like no one else in the community cares about what you have created. In my experience, there is no real "community" for those of us who do originals to support each other.
Of course, this is all my perspective and I tend to live under a rock. So I could be perceiving things in a way that is different from reality. ^^;
 

KNΞMΛTCS

Just an UtaForum user
Defender of Defoko
Hm... I do have issues, but I'm not sure where to start.
First, it feels like no one is willing to play with genres. I mean, I understand that we are all a little bit limited. We only have our computers. But you can synthesize a decent piano piece in FL Studio. We don't have to limit ourselves.
I think what I'm trying to say is that those who are just starting tend to decide "This is the genre I will compose, and I won't do anything else" and that sort of stagnates.
Another thing is it's a bit depressing because it feels like no one else in the community cares about what you have created. In my experience, there is no real "community" for those of us who do originals to support each other.
Of course, this is all my perspective and I tend to live under a rock. So I could be perceiving things in a way that is different from reality. ^^;

Being limited to a laptop really isn't limiting at all. Just considering electronic music: there's everything from avant-garde electronica to harsh industrial and hardcore, from environmental chillout to dancy club-bangers. You never see this sheer variety of music from vocal synth, particularly from the west. I believe it's from the same reasons I mentioned in my earlier post - why go out of the box, when you can get more attention (and potentially more emotional outlet) by being a sheep? Usually, experimentation stems from artistic drive, but as I said, the vocal synth community is often a therapy group rather than a creativity outlet.
 

PrinceofHades

A wandering soul
Defender of Defoko
Being limited to a laptop really isn't limiting at all. Just considering electronic music: there's everything from avant-garde electronica to harsh industrial and hardcore, from environmental chillout to dancy club-bangers. You never see this sheer variety of music from vocal synth, particularly from the west. I believe it's from the same reasons I mentioned in my earlier post - why go out of the box, when you can get more attention (and potentially more emotional outlet) by being a sheep? Usually, experimentation stems from artistic drive, but as I said, the vocal synth community is often a therapy group rather than a creativity outlet.

That was my point, actually. Being limited to a laptop is not, in fact, limiting. Sorry for not making that clear. OTL
There doesn't seem to be much experimentation in the community at all. And that disappoints me. You could, theoretically, make a song using only UTAU or VOCALOID as your instrument. But I don't know if anyone's ever tried that. It's kind of sad.
I am of the opinion that lack of experimentation is a death sentence for an artist's creativity.
 

HulderBulder

Retired User
Retired User
Defender of Defoko
There doesn't seem to be much experimentation in the community at all. And that disappoints me. You could, theoretically, make a song using only UTAU or VOCALOID as your instrument. But I don't know if anyone's ever tried that. It's kind of sad.
I am of the opinion that lack of experimentation is a death sentence for an artist's creativity.
Someone did use a voicebank in mimicking different instuments in a song, with a joke bank no less.


But yeah its a rare thing. Mostly due to it being more convinient to have the synth and mixing in the same program, if that makes sense.
 

WendytheCreeper

(>☉ ͡ヮ☉<)
Defender of Defoko
Thread starter
This ties into the lack of quality as well. As mentioned, most of us are kids with a laptop and a some months of casual experience. Since the vast majority of the vocal synth community is of a similar nature, the quality standards for most content is on a similar plane, which gives producers little motivation to improve quality or push the limits. As I said before, the community has a significant population of emotional people in need of a relief. These people tend to be quite sensitive, giving blows of nastiness at the slightest jostle. In other words, they can't handle any critical opinions or comments on their work - putting a damper on their ability to improve. All this creates a feedback loop which results in the particular type of content we see in troves today.

That's a bit of a pessimistic way to consider young artists in the community, isn't it? I know you say that the more mature musicians will move on, but why is younger artists expressing themselves in this way depicted as a bad thing?

Though granted, you frame it from more of a perspective of the whole of Western vocal synth music, rather than on an individual basis. Like klad said, it's in general a lot healthier to express emotions through music and other creative outlets rather than bottling up or through more destructive means.

I like to think of it kinda like when you look at the artwork of certain age groups online. There will be the Sonic OCs and bad anime art everywhere, but they're having fun and that's what's most important to me as a creator. I think over time, the soundscape will shift naturally as certain populations grow and mature as musicians and people, and as musical styles change in popularity.

(Of course, there are people who want to be edgy and desire that to be their style. They should be allowed to make that their brand.)

Speaking as a creator myself, I'm really not all that big at all at telling people what style they should be going for (or not going for), unless if it's for a specific purpose or they're being paid. Especially since when I make music with voice synths, it's a separate thing from my academic music work where I can kick back and not worry about how my professor or (compositional) peers would criticize my work. It's purely for fun and personal expression, no grades or deadlines to worry about.

Do you think if the music became more pop-like and sunshine and rainbows, people may complain the other way? Probably, since we do all want more of a variety in general. But I don't think the way to go is to simply force people to change. Rather, I think it'll be more connected to the passage of time and styles more than anything, and that change to the body of music as a whole will not happen quickly but so gradually that we may not even notice.
 

KNΞMΛTCS

Just an UtaForum user
Defender of Defoko
That's a bit of a pessimistic way to consider young artists in the community, isn't it? I know you say that the more mature musicians will move on, but why is younger artists expressing themselves in this way depicted as a bad thing?
There's nothing particularly bad about this situation, and I don't remember saying so - just that the songs get repetitive and boring to me, so I get my musical fix elsewhere. The whole deal is doing its job as an emotional outlet, if not yielding great artwork.
Do you think if the music became more pop-like and sunshine and rainbows, people may complain the other way? Probably, since we do all want more of a variety in general. But I don't think the way to go is to simply force people to change. Rather, I think it'll be more connected to the passage of time and styles more than anything, and that change to the body of music as a whole will not happen quickly but so gradually that we may not even notice.
Nowhere am I advocating or suggesting to force people to change. I would, however, advocate supporting unique creators that step out of the box and bring something new to the table, and encourage current creators to experiment as well. It's that the vocal synth group, at least the majority of the west, has grown a watered-down, sterile version of music, not unlike radio pop. Again, this isn't necessarily bad, but it seems a bit disappointing. Perhaps this is even a good thing, and a sign of maturity for vocal synthesis - a top 1% of pop music gaining most of the publicity, and a rich underground scene where the more creative music flows - not unlike the wider music scene in general.

I'll admit my earlier post is a wee bit ranty. I was having quite a day yesterday.
 

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